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January 16, 2013

Comments

Gregory T.

Well written, as usual. I hate how passionate people get about being American and how passive they are about being Christian. Thanks for a fair perspective

B L A C K M O N J O E

Typical left wing drivel. "When are we told to resist the government?" I sure am glad the folks hiding Jews from the Nazis didn't think that.

Charles

I agree with your points except for the part about the Government raining down upon your house. That is true as an individual with one gun against the government but if there is a revolution then the assumption is that the individuals that are in the military would take up their government arms against the masses. The Government weapons ie; Tanks, Artilery and aircraft are only good if there are soldiers to man them.

Alan Cross


Joe, Romans 13 is left wing drivel? I will give you one more chance to actually engage an argument here instead of just spew vitriol. What have I said that is wrong or unbiblical? Use a gun to protect yourself and/or the weak? Submit

to the authorities? Be careful that you are not overtaken by fear but trust in God?

Alan Cross


Charles, if a revolution happens then our individual guns will be of little use. Especially as Christians. We have better spiritual weapons anyway. I dont know if we understand how powerful the U.S. military is. Armed resistance would be a disaster. Of much better use in that situation would be nonviolent resistance.

Sent from my iPhone

Christiane

The United States Military in all of its branches is profoundly patriotic. I have currently one son in the Coast Guard, one nephew who is a Navy physician, and one niece who is a Navy nurse, all serving our country in the military. Not only do they serve, but they also do volunteering in their communities where they are on duty.

You will not see our country suffer from its own military, no. The 'military' is our sons and our daughters, our nieces and nephews, our fathers and our husbands . . . I hope whomever is doing the fear-mongering (and it's always for profit) is spot-lighted for what they are.

Little Noah Posner lay in his small coffin when the governor of Connecticut was asked to view his body by Mrs. Posner. She wanted the governor to see what had been done to her little boy. The child was shot eleven times. A cloth covered the lower part of his face. Above the cloth, the beautiful child seemed to be sleeping peacefully, but beneath the cloth, there was no face left . . . his lower face and jaw had been blown away. Mrs. Posner wanted the governor to KNOW that her child wasn't just 'shot'. He had been slaughtered. Horribly.

THIS TIME is different. People are saying 'enough'. I hope some good comes from what happened to those little ones that keeps this nightmare from happening again and again. We owe this to those who have suffered.

I don't know about 'conservative' Christians. I know about Christians. That is why this post speaks to me honorably. I needed to read this post today and I thank you, ALAN, for writing it. And for letting me give voice to my pain.

J O E B L A C K M O N

Nice dodge, Alan. Of course, since the example I gave about submitting to government under Nazi persecution of the Jews kinda demonstrates that we're NOT supposed to blindly bow to government as you wrongly alledge that Romans 13 teaches I can't say I blame you for changing the subject.

Vitrol? Trust me, you and your "conservative" buddies have NO idea.

J O E B L A C K M O N

Christiane, or L's as you used to call yourself*,

You remember that email I sent Debbie that hurt your heart so bad. Let's just say be very glad I don't have your email address because I've got one with some very specific things to say to you that I've been saving up for about 3 years now. However, I think you already know how I feel about you.

*That's pretty pathetic that you used your grandmother's inital as a ploy to insert yourself on Baptist blogs and now that she's served her purpose you drop that.

David Rogers

Alan,

Thanks for some biblical common sense on this. It seems there are so many things we divide over instead of uniting over the gospel

I am going to post it for all my Facebook friends to see.

Alan Cross

Joe, I would agree with those who hid the Jews against the Naziis and I would do the same. There are a lot of acts of civil disobedience that I think are right and Godly and should be called for when the time arises. I think that Christians in the South before the Civil War should have stood up to overthrow an evil slave system and I also think that Christians should have stood up to disobey the dictates of segregation. There are many ways that we should oppose an evil goverment instead of blindly bowing the knee.

You are completely missing my point yet again and I am beginning to believe that it is intentional. My point, clearly stated, is simply that we are allowed to use guns for self-defense but hoarding weapons to overthrow the government or to be a part of some type of uprising to hold the government accountable to the Constitution is not a Biblical stance to take and the fact that that has even come up at this point demonstrates how unbalanced the conversation on this is in parts of the Christian community. We have other means of engaging in nonviolent resistance that would be more Biblical.

Christiane

Hi JOE,

I do remember what you wrote to Debbie in an e-mail, because she published it on her blog.

Perhaps you should consult with some advisers about using e-mail in that way, JOE.
Over the holiday, my husband invited a retired teacher in our community to come by the house and meet our son Joel who was home for the holiday from military duty in the Pacific. My husband, who is meeting a lot of new people in our community as he walks the dog, thought that perhaps our son had had this person for his teacher in high school some years ago.

Well, the old gentlemen did call 'round and was invited in, but our son was not home. He stayed for two hours, and held forth on many disconnected topics, cutting us off to prevent any questions or any real conversation. We did not know if he was ill, but my husband did finally ask him to leave our home. We knew something was wrong, but we did not know what it was, and we still do not know all the details.

We found out some. We found out the reason(s) the man got in trouble in the high school, and it was a serious reason.

I don't judge this man, but I was not happy with my husband, who is such a stickler for privacy for our family. It was my husband's idea for me not to give out my e-mail openly or my full name on-line, and I have respected his sensible wishes. Having taught for many years and worked with the parents to whom I freely gave my home phone number, only once did I my personal information abused by a mother with certain problems whose phone call to my home was abusive.

Perhaps you should ask for me to be 'banned' from SBC blogs, if you find that you feel the need to write me e-mails of the kind you wrote Debbie.
That actually might be for the best, JOE.

I genuinely wish you well, and do not wish for you to continue attacking anyone with emails of the nature of what you wrote to Debbie.
You might benefit from showing that email to your pastor and receiving some pastoral help.
My prayers go with you, as they have for a long time, that you receive peace from Our Lord.

Dave Miller

Alan, I don't know if you got my email - I've got several listed for you! But I know a certain group blog that would love to re-post this in a day or two, with your permission.

LanaJoseph @ Data Encryption

It's not the Christians who should own guns, its all of us of because, there is religion that says that people are allowed to use weapons.

kschaub

There's a lot to commend here. There really is. But let me quibble with you a little. Of course Romans 13 is an almost "Loctite" text on the relationship between citizens and their civil authorities. Civil authorities have been instituted by God for national order and to bear the sword. We are even cautioned that "whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed."

So here's my comment. I believe Romans 13 is just about always the rule for life. We shouldn't resist the authorities. We should be in submission, almost always, to our "rulers." But like I said, Romans 13 is "almost 'Loctite'." In other words, I believe some extreme circumstances call for civil disobedience. Whether it be tyranny, tax dollars used to fund abortion, or an enforced state church upon the state’s citizens, there MAY BE biblical cause for resistance or civil disobedience.

What about our own American revolution? Was it biblically permissible? Perhaps you could make the case that it wasn't. I would venture to think there were Christians on both sides of the debate—loyalists and patriots. (That in itself is an unacceptable aspect of this sinful world—Christians on either side of one's own cross hairs.)

Not to defend our American forefathers in all they did, but it seems to me that they understood that they must make a "biblical" case for their Declaration of Independence. That is what it seems they attempted to do. They made their case that a tyrannical monarch had taken from them their inalienable rights—rights that were afforded to them by God, which only God could rightfully take away. They had to have solid reasons to resist their civil authorities.

Point is: if we ever decide it's our duty to resist our "rulers," we better be able to live with it, and we better have a biblical case for it.

(I'll post this at Voices as well.)

Lisa

Great comments..thing to think about. I have other thoughts but will save them for another time. Good topic.

Christiane

I would like to affirm my statements concerning our military.
My son’s pledge to his country? Take a look:

“I am America’s maritime guardian.
I serve the citizens of the United States.
I will protect them.
I will defend them.
I will save them.
I am their shield.
For them I am Semper Paratus.
I live the Coast Guard core values.
I am a guardian.
We are the United States Coast Guard.”

My nephew? He’s a physician in the Navy who volunteers his services when he can in areas of the world where people have little help.

My niece, a Navy nurse. Her own university awarded her their ten-year award for a graduate nurse. Why? Tours of duty in Iraq, Afghanistan, and service aboard the ‘Comfort’ hospital ship off the coast of Haiti after the earthquake. My niece has volunteered many, many hours among civilian populations overseas.

I affirm my belief that they are people who love this country and serve it with good hearts.

I will attempt to place this comment also over at SBCVoices, and I am not sure that it will be posted. I don't understand some of the comments made directed towards our military on that post's comment stream. I can't understand them, Alan.

God Bless our serving military . . . they would die for their country willingly, but I cannot see them being the targets of 'citizen militia', I just can't.

Something about that militia thinking is very, very wrong.

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