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September 19, 2008

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Jeff Moody

Alan,

Thank you for being prophetic instead of political in this situation. There are so many that are going to lean to their conservative or liberal stances before looking to God's word. This issue is much more than political.

I watched a newscast this morning where to "experts" were debating. One said that it was that people borrowed too much money and could not pay the loans (Read: The people's fault) and another sad that it was because banks offered these loans and led people to borrow the money on these bad loans (Read: The banks' fault). Where does the blame lie?

I think that it lies with everyone. The sin of greed has caused both the banks to utilize bad loans and the people to borrow more than they could afford. The church must continue to teach God's word in any and all situations and that includes our financial life, though we do our best sometimes to avoid that reality.

"Whoever loves money never has money enough; whoever loves wealth is never satisfied with his income. This too is meaningless." - Ecclesiates 5:10

"For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." - 1 Timothy 6:10

America now reaps what it has sown.

Bob Cleveland

If you're correct, then, to whatever extent the crisis includes the actions of believers, its a terrible indictment of churches and pastors (speaking in general there and not to any particular local church). If believers have participated in the practices and outworkings of greed, etc, then there's a real disconnect between what goes on in church .. what's taught, preached and learned there .. and what people do in their everyday lives.

Beyond believers, the church does not have answers for it. The church's message is one of sin, death, righteousness, and salvation. If it's true that believers didn't play a big part in the problem, then more believers would mean fewer workers of the financial sort of iniquity.

Natural man would have no basis to correlate, nor could they perceive, IMHO, any spiritual connection to the mess.

Bob Cleveland

Oh yes ... I think you are.

Alan Cross

Great points, Jeff. That is exactly what I have been trying to say in this series of posts. The Church has an answer for this, we just don't articulate it because do not have a perspective on things like this from a moral perspective. When it comes to finances, we think that if it is legal then it is moral. We don't have any better way than to follow after the world.

Bob,I don't follow your last comment.

Alan Cross

I also just saw in the USA Today that the deepening financial crisis has wiped out 3 trillion dollars in stock value this year. Add that to the 1.5 trillion that we are now on the hook for and all that has been spent on rising fuel costs and Americans are a lot less wealthy than we were a few months ago.

Truly Jesus was right when He told us to store up treasures in Heaven where moth and rust do not destroy.

Chris McCorkle

I don't disagree with anything you guys are saying here. We have definitely reaped what we have sown. As someone who has been involved with Dave Ramsey, I've been teaching and warning people about the dangers of adjustable rate mortgages and this syndrome of living beyond our means for years.

All that said, my heart here is for us to pray. I think in the church we need to remove the log from our own eye first and repent of where we have lived like the world in this area. I think we need to pray for God's mercy on our nation, on the people who are suffering in this, and even for the businesses who are collapsing or on the verge of collapse. I think we can pray that people would turn to God in these hard times and that businesses would raise up leaders who honor God after seeing the results of not doing so.
Finally, I think we need to pray for God's hand to be on the men and women who are presently trying figure out how the government can best help here. They truly have some unprecedented decisions on their shoulders right now...

Bob Cleveland

Alan,

Lost folks couldn't perceive any spiritual connection to greed-driven lenders who lend money to folks who can't afford a house but are prompted by pride to buy one anyway. Just as they can't understand how a loving God can let bad things happen to good people, etc.

To the extent that Christians contributed to the mortgage (and other contributing factors) mess, they've ignored good stewardship. And the church had answers, which they didn't pay attention to.

But our message to lost America concerns their souls, not their financial well-being.

I recall being a devoted Christian and member of the Pelham City Council (we were 3/5 believers), and the only time we saw pastors there was when they wanted to complain about liquor licenses. As if their role was political activism for moral causes, rather than evangelism (I'm saying that's the impression). Pastors were never there when we discussed taxes, city improvements, zoning laws, or any other of the routine city management matters. Analagous, perhaps, to members never coming to a business meeting at church because "nothing important's happening", but showing up en masse when something controversial and divisive crops up.

I fear the church thinking and saying it has answers in things like this might well be seen the same way by the public. And that might affect the church's main message. I think we have to be careful about that. Not ME or YOU, but the church. Individually, it's a good point over which to witness.

That's my take, anyhoo.

Jeff Moody

The church has a tremendous audience now to preach for those to make God their treasure instead of the world. Greed pervades even the walls of the church. How many building programs have we all seen go belly up in the name of "ministry" when it was actually the need to have the most marketable structure in town. We too need to confess our sins of greed and look to this world and say "We have a better answer."

By your logic it seems that we should not muddy the water of our gospel by involving ourselves in the current financial crisis or many other social issues. Why can't we use the current financial crisis as a way to share the gospel with the world? We (and I do really mean we) are so adept at hiding from social issues instead of using them as a chance to preach the gospel and help the downtrodden.

I agree that the church's main task is the preaching of the gospel. However, I don't see the disconnect that you do in addressing this financial climate. The church can preach the gospel from this platform, and should. Our message is the same: We have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God by greed and we now see the consequences of these sins. The ultimate punishment of sin will be far worse. God offers a hope greater than that which can be gained by sin and we can be set free from its perils through Jesus because he died on the cross for these same sins that have left us where we are. And the offer of Christ is far greater than that of any financial security because it lasts forever.

I believe that message is relevant to a world whose financial blanket just got pulled off them.

Lee Saunders

The church needs to be the church. It does not need to be a political influence, or try to resolve a problem that lies beyond its calling and purpose. It simply needs to be what it is called to be, the way it is defined in the scriptures. The church should be able to exist under any circumstances. It exists in the poorest of countries, in collapsed economic situations, behind the iron curtain, under the sword. It is called to be the body of Christ, a Biblical community practicing body life. Money is a temporal thing. The answer that the church has for the problems we face, regardless of what we are, is that we continue to stand steadfast for Christ. That's our answer.

Alan Cross

Lee,

I agree with all that you say here, except I draw different implications. Jesus had quite a bit to say about money - you can't serve two masters, store up treasures in heaven, not on earth, it is hard for rich men to enter heaven, etc. In Col. 3, greed is called idolatry. What we do with money says a great deal about who/what we worship and what we find important. I am not necessarily saying that the Church should be unveiling economic policy, but I do think that a consistent carrying out of Jesus' ethic on money by Christians would vastly alter the economic landscape of this country and provide a powerful witness for what the life of Christ in the believer really looks like. Unfortunately, we have engaged in a Platonic sacred/secular divide that relegates the Church's role to the spiritual/devotional/pietistic realm and leaves "real life" issues like finances to the experts who happen to focus on this world. That is a false dichotomy and it is deadly to Christian discipleship.

I have read enough of your writings to know that you do not advocate such a divide, but that is what I am getting at in what I am writing on this issue. I DO think that the Church has something to say about this crisis and about how we should approach financial issues, both individually as well as nationally. But, we do not spend enough time hashing out a Biblical approach to faithfulness in a market economy. We quickly turn it into "no debt" teaching (which is good, but is only part of the story, or we just go along with the world and try not to break any laws. I think that God has more for us than that.

Debbie Kaufman

I guess my question would be, why wasn't something done a long time ago when people began losing their homes? There were signs of this coming.

Ade

I believe the Church cannot be exonerated in this crisis in America. As it is said the root of all evil is Money, the evil of money as created this economic meltdown. The church for some time has been focused on preaching all about prosperity having that bigger car, bigger house etc and forgetting the teaching of repentance, discipline etc. I believe the church should now rise up to provide the spiritual and emotional succor to the fallout of the economic crises looming ahead.
We should pray that the Lord should avert the great crises coming ahead, there is an ominous cloud hovering over America, as the bible says whatsoever a man soeth, so shall he reap, the seed of greed as now come to roost and it is now payday. The only way to avert the catastrophe ahead is serious prayer and the Church should rise up to provide this shield.

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